Apostle Grace Lubega: ...we have the prophetess, pastor, bishop, evangelist, teacher... [Applause] ...Modesta, Pastor Modester Sweeney Okome, in the flesh! Praise the Lord, woman of God! We don't take it for granted that you even allowed to fly in just for this. Somebody shout, Hallelujah!
Let me give them an opportunity to say hello to you, and then we start our Q&A. Hello.
Pastor Francis Myinza: Hey! Africa likes you. Hello. Praise be to God. Yes, you've heard my name. I only have to add one more name there; Kironde is my name. Um, you've heard I'm a pastor, but, uh, right now I did not come as a pastor. I came as a friend to the women. [Music] Yes, yes. And let me also recognize his wife; she's in the congregation. She came to escort him to make sure that what he tells us... I didn't say that. Yes, mama.
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Good afternoon and praise the Lord. Yes, those are my names, Faith Katana. I'm really privileged to be here. I... Apostle Grace has committed a sin; I always shy away from camera. I'm not a camera person, but I feel so blessed when I see that this whole lot is seeking the Lord. Tonight, I believe that before we leave here, everyone will have an identity. And from here, we shall all stand in our positions, know our mandate, work in it, and God will be glorified. God bless you. Hallelujah! Thank you, mama.
Pastor Modester Sweeney Okome: Hello, Jesus! I'm so glad to see you today. My name is Modesta Sweeney Okome. I pastor with Phanero Ministries International. Papa, thank you so much for the opportunity to speak today. Thank you.
Apostle Grace Lubega: Did you hear me? Does the voice reach in the back? Because I feel some microphones are low. So we need some more, uh, volume, especially for our mamas.
Now, straight into the questions. I'm going to begin with you, mama, because you are shy when it comes to the camera. Praise the Lord. Um, and we're going... it's going to be conversational. It's going to be conversation.
What is... sometimes we have a fundamental question, and, uh, back in many years, this was not a question we should have asked because it was obviously interpretable even to the most common and simplest person. But now, it's almost as if, in this generation, this is a question that we have to fundamentally address: What is the biblical purpose of a woman, and what has God created a woman to be or do?
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Wow, that's a great question. And I believe, uh, I'll give a little insight of what I think, biblically, starting with even Genesis. When we find that God made them male and female, God made them in His image. That straightaway shows me that even the woman is in God's image. That is both in functioning and in expression.
Which then also, when we continue and then when we see God commanding them to have dominion and take care of the nature, the creation, I see still the woman has a part, as well as a man. Well, a person will help us, and others. Somehow, I understand female and male differently in that I find it's about masculinity and femininity, which you find that all of us, some men have some femininity in them, and some women also have some masculinity in them, but predominantly women or men.
But when we go biblically still, we find when God talks of creating a helper, a helper for Adam. And this was now when the woman comes in to help. I think "to help" is somehow, somewhere, someone needs a second hand in what this person is doing. Which puts us in seeing what, and allow me to say this, our help, actually, Apostle, comes fully equipped with every kind of tool and with every kind of strength. Which means, is fully ready to help.
Now, when we come to the scriptures in the New Testament, and I find that Jesus said, "I'm sending you a helper," then before I know or do anything, I think of a woman being a counterpart of the Holy Spirit in the Godhead, in the family. Because we know that the families on earth are named after the family in heaven. Then the mandate of a woman, then I find there is influencing. Because in worship, we don't see the Holy Spirit a lot, but the Holy Spirit moves the glory of God. So they are influential. It is influencing, it is nurturing, it is a birthing, it is... I feel that that is the mandate and the call, the biblical call of a woman. And maybe there, I could allow others to come in, but I based on those scriptures to know that a woman is a counterpart of the Holy Spirit. And if then, I've got to understand the purpose and the role of the Holy Spirit to adapt the one that I am a look-alike. Wow.
Pastor Francis Myinza: Thank you. Oh wow. Hope... I just want to give a scripture for that. It's Genesis 2, I think verse 18, that God saw that a man needed a suitable helper for him, so He brought in a woman. So indeed, a woman is a helper; that is a Godly given purpose for her. But like you've put it, in fact, I've never actually connected the two. Because now, the Bible, Jesus said, "I'm not going to leave you as orphans, but I'm going to send you a helper." That puts me a little bit in trouble with my... because now, that I had never seen it from that perspective.
But the truth of the matter, actually, the way you put it, it really puts value on the woman in that sense. A helper, and you equate him to the Holy Spirit. What does the Holy Spirit do? He empowers. So the woman is the one who empowers. Very interesting. It's a very interesting way that the woman now empowers the one she's helping. That's interesting. That's interesting.
But on the other hand, also, it says that the helper will not do as they want; they will only do as they get instructions from... okay, that's the other thing. So that's now the relationship. You've actually given me a very interesting revelation as you are talking.
But I also want to put in the other purpose, which is Genesis chapter, I think, verse 20. The woman's purpose, biblical purpose, is to mother. To mother the living. Basically that, mother the living. And, uh, maybe at this point, I will also stop and just want to hear what Modester has to say about this from the prophetic view, you know. Praise the Lord Jesus.
Pastor Modester Sweeney Okome: Every woman that lives has a womb. Yes. So when I think about a woman, I'm thinking about somebody that has an ability to receive. [Music] So because when you go to the Bible in Genesis 3, you remember the Bible does not say "his seed" which shall bruise the head of the serpent. It says "her seed." It makes it personal. Why? Because the reason we carry wombs is to receive seed. So when I have seed, the Bible says, "her seed shall bruise the head of the devil, and it shall bruise his heel." So what do wombs mean in this particular sense? Wombs mean that we are receivers of seed. And the Bible says in Luke 8:11 that the seed is the word. So we are manufactured in a particular way that not only do we have physical wombs, but there's a special thing that a woman carries, that when God is thinking about reformation, great awakening, He's looking for someone that has an ability to carry seed. And who is that person? The one with the womb. Because the womb is the place where seed is kept, it is nurtured, it is provided all the vitamins, all the nutrients it needs to become something. Then it's presented forth as the purpose of God. Yes, Father.
Apostle Grace Lubega: Yes, praise the Lord Jesus Christ. Um, and please allow me to build on what you've spoken, because that's what was in my spirit. Again, why do we define a woman? If you're a woman, why should we again take time to define it? Like I said in the beginning, the roles, responsibilities have changed. The vision of God concerning women has what? Has changed today. That we have to be deliberate, like we've said, not only to define that identity but to position you to be functional as you should.
Let me begin from where this the wonderful man of God said the scripture: "It is not good for man to be alone." When you study the root definitions there in the Hebrew, that portion of scripture translates as "man cannot build alone." It translates as "man wastes alone," "man spoils alone." That's actually the Hebrew. In other words, when God created Adam in His image, He knew that if Adam stays alone, he will spoil himself.
And by the way, on a deeper level, there are people who cannot be alone, because when they are alone, they have to somewhere waste themselves, some sort of wasting. Did you know that? There are people who cannot be alone and not waste. If they're alone, they'll find themselves drinking. If they're alone, they find themselves playing with things. Why? Because it is a hard thing, by the way, to be one, yet alone. It's almost as though many things connect themselves to you when you're alone or when you are conscious of your loneliness.
And it's in the same right that God said that it is not good for man to be alone, because He knows if a man is alone, he will automatically waste himself. It takes only the understanding of the fruit of the Spirit, why we have things like self-control, that you will tell yourself... If you want to know a person who is whole, that's a person who does not waste themselves when they're alone, who does not spoil themselves when they're alone. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the meaning of "it is not good for man to be alone."
That is why there is no man in the world – and this is true, it's a fact from scripture – who can have a successful ministry without women. It's not possible. Did you know that? A successful institution without women... regardless, whether it's... you need a certain helper, otherwise you'll what? Will spoil. But it's also equally true, it is hard to have a successful women's ministry. Temusobola. [You can't manage each other.] That is why God put a man's eye to be a part of you, because it's the two things that complete each other.
However, in this narrative, now I'm going to what Mama Modester was saying here. I am intrigued about the word you said, "receiving seed." But allow me to use a deeper word: conception. Because the root word there of conception is concept, idea, construct. That God has naturally, biblically given a woman the mind to construct any vision. That's primarily it. That you are a constructor of vision. If a man has a vision, God has given you the grace of construction, of interpretation. If a concept is also interpretation, God has given you the idea to execute the vision. That is why man cannot be alone, because if he has a vision but there is no power to construct it, then he cannot be what? Complete.
So, there are those who are married; it becomes easier to interpret this narrative. But for any of you who are single, who are not married, it still doesn't take away your part and essence of nature as God has created you to be and do. The question is, as a woman, do you look at yourself as a conception entity? Do you look at yourself as that person God created on earth to give interpretation and understanding of things? There is a way women interpret things. Now, those of us who are married can tell you that you realize it's in them to interpret. Because even as men, now Mr. Myinza can tell you, even with all the wisdom we have, there are ways we cannot interpret certain things. And you grow to appreciate if you have had a mother, if you have had a wife, if you've had people who really have worked with God and have a relationship with God, there are things they can do that only they have the ability to do. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ. So for me, what I take is the place of conception. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ.
Second question. Um, now there's this issue that we find many of our ladies are dealing with. And I've seen it many a time where you find a lady who is a mother, she has an 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. job, she's maybe pursuing a master's degree to further her advantages in life and career. [Music] She is a wife, and she has to attend to the needs of her husband. And sometimes also us, we are like... I will not say it. Praise the Lord. And especially now for you who has been working for years, as long as I remember, you're working. But how do you find that perfect balance? Because there are women, when they miss, when they attend to the family, they miss their place with God. Some, when they try to connect to their place in God, they miss their place with career. And then, if they're trying to catch up with children, they mess up their man. If they're trying to fix the man, then they mess up the child. What we're asking is the wisdom to draw that balance. Where does it begin from?
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Thank you, Apostle. I will try. Uh, I'm privileged that actually I've been in these areas. And one thing, I think the beginning of it all still begins with the number one question: First thing is identity. How do I identify myself? Who am I? What am I? Before I deal with all these spectrum of things, I find that that is key, has been key in my life, to have an identity.
And I think, and I've mingled with women, and with my daughters, by the way, I'm a mother of nine. Yes, I received. [Applause] I am married to my husband, James Katana. So Katana is his name. Now I have my grandchildren, over a dozen of them. And I'm 67 years old. So, and I'm a leader, and not anywhere else but in State House, working with a principal. And at the same time, I'm a minister of the word. Most importantly, I am born again. What I mean, I have been renewed in the spirit of my mind, that I no longer think or view anything from the world perspective. That's what I'm talking, that I'm born again.
So balancing this, I found that the issue with us is lack of identity in most cases. But with the scriptures I started with, is that if I'm created in God's image, then can I first and foremost look at my where I came from? Do I know the qualities of God? Do I know who God is? Do I know how He functions? Do I know His standards? Do I know what I'm expected to be, if God is my prototype? So I start there.
And when I talk about the Holy Spirit of being a counterpart, indeed, as you're saying, we are incubators. I've got to identify myself that yes, I got to receive, but also I have to incubate, and I have to nurture. That means that whoever you women are, leaders at all levels, from home to work to church to everything, because you've got to influence. Women are more influencers, actually, than commanding. And maybe that's where sometimes we lose it, when we want to come forcefully, and you also assert yourself, and you be manly, and everything. That created, God created has a purpose. So I come from there knowing...
Apostle Grace Lubega: Must explain commanding versus influence.
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Commanding is, "You do this! You have to do this! This ought to be like this!" That is commanding or giving a decree, and it goes. But a woman influences by giving direction and showing direction by who they see you are and what you do. So that is not about word. "I've been doing this..." We hide behind the word of God and the pulpit, and... but what is your life? What is my experience?
So as a mother, grandmother, wife, and minister, and leader, I find that first of all, the stabilizing factor is knowing who I am, knowing my mandate, knowing what is expected of me. And in most cases, I still say it, not religiously, I must know God. I must have a personal relationship with God. That is the stabilizing factor. That's who will teach you how to deal with all this. This is, this is hard. You have a husband there, you have the children there. The husband is saying, "You have more time for your children." Then you have a job waiting for you, and the job is saying, "You care about the family." You... it is such a hard thing. But I found that everything has been simplified by indeed co-working with the Holy Spirit to teach me the way to go and what I should do. That has stabilized me, and that has caused me the balance. Because God has made me balanced. I am balanced emotionally, physically, mentally. I am balanced. Why? Because there is that harmonizing factor of the Holy Spirit in a deep relationship with my God.
Apostle Grace Lubega: She is saying that there is a balance that she feels she has by God because of her relationship with the Holy Spirit. So the concept of "how do you balance?" is not really the question, because this balancing comes within her identity. And that is beautiful, because then you're drawing from within. This is not something you're trying to live without, as one trying to, uh, construct some geography around this whole philosophy of balancing life, but rather from a place that God has built within you because you know who you are and the vision that you have concerning how God has made you. He has made you balanced. And as you continue to yield to the person of the Holy Spirit, you find that all things work together. That's what she's saying. That's deep. That's deep. Thank you for that answer.
Pastor Modester Sweeney OkOkay, here's the cleaned and processed continuation of the transcript:
Apostle Grace Lubega: ...we have the prophetess, pastor, bishop, evangelist, teacher... [Applause] ...Modesta, Pastor Modester Sweeney Okome, in the flesh! Praise the Lord, woman of God! We don't take it for granted that you even allowed to fly in just for this. Somebody shout, Hallelujah!
Let me give them an opportunity to say hello to you, and then we start our Q&A. Hello.
Pastor Francis Myinza: Hey! Africa likes you. Hello. Praise be to God. Yes, you've heard my name. I only have to add one more name there; Kironde is my name. Um, you've heard I'm a pastor, but, uh, right now I did not come as a pastor. I came as a friend to the women. [Music] Yes, yes. And let me also recognize his wife; she's in the congregation. She came to escort him to make sure that what he tells us... I didn't say that. Yes, mama.
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Good afternoon and praise the Lord. Yes, those are my names, Faith Katana. I'm really privileged to be here. I... Apostle Grace has committed a sin; I always shy away from camera. I'm not a camera person, but I feel so blessed when I see that this whole lot is seeking the Lord. Tonight, I believe that before we leave here, everyone will have an identity. And from here, we shall all stand in our positions, know our mandate, work in it, and God will be glorified. God bless you. Hallelujah! Thank you, mama.
Pastor Modester Sweeney Okome: Hello, Jesus! I'm so glad to see you today. My name is Modesta Sweeney Okome. I pastor with Phanero Ministries International. Papa, thank you so much for the opportunity to speak today. Thank you.
Apostle Grace Lubega: Did you hear me? Does the voice reach in the back? Because I feel some microphones are low. So we need some more, uh, volume, especially for our mamas.
Now, straight into the questions. I'm going to begin with you, mama, because you are shy when it comes to the camera. Praise the Lord. Um, and we're going... it's going to be conversational. It's going to be conversation.
What is... sometimes we have a fundamental question, and, uh, back in many years, this was not a question we should have asked because it was obviously interpretable even to the most common and simplest person. But now, it's almost as if, in this generation, this is a question that we have to fundamentally address: What is the biblical purpose of a woman, and what has God created a woman to be or do?
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Wow, that's a great question. And I believe, uh, I'll give a little insight of what I think, biblically, starting with even Genesis. When we find that God made them male and female, God made them in His image. That straightaway shows me that even the woman is in God's image. That is both in functioning and in expression.
Which then also, when we continue and then when we see God commanding them to have dominion and take care of the nature, the creation, I see still the woman has a part, as well as a man. Well, a person will help us, and others. Somehow, I understand female and male differently in that I find it's about masculinity and femininity, which you find that all of us, some men have some femininity in them, and some women also have some masculinity in them, but predominantly women or men.
But when we go biblically still, we find when God talks of creating a helper, a helper for Adam. And this was now when the woman comes in to help. I think "to help" is somehow, somewhere, someone needs a second hand in what this person is doing. Which puts us in seeing what, and allow me to say this, our help, actually, Apostle, comes fully equipped with every kind of tool and with every kind of strength. Which means, is fully ready to help.
Now, when we come to the scriptures in the New Testament, and I find that Jesus said, "I'm sending you a helper," then before I know or do anything, I think of a woman being a counterpart of the Holy Spirit in the Godhead, in the family. Because we know that the families on earth are named after the family in heaven. Then the mandate of a woman, then I find there is influencing. Because in worship, we don't see the Holy Spirit a lot, but the Holy Spirit moves the glory of God. So they are influential. It is influencing, it is nurturing, it is a birthing, it is... I feel that that is the mandate and the call, the biblical call of a woman. And maybe there, I could allow others to come in, but I based on those scriptures to know that a woman is a counterpart of the Holy Spirit. And if then, I've got to understand the purpose and the role of the Holy Spirit to adapt the one that I am a look-alike. Wow.
Pastor Francis Myinza: Thank you. Oh wow. Hope... I just want to give a scripture for that. It's Genesis 2, I think verse 18, that God saw that a man needed a suitable helper for him, so He brought in a woman. So indeed, a woman is a helper; that is a Godly given purpose for her. But like you've put it, in fact, I've never actually connected the two. Because now, the Bible, Jesus said, "I'm not going to leave you as orphans, but I'm going to send you a helper." That puts me a little bit in trouble with my... because now, that I had never seen it from that perspective.
But the truth of the matter, actually, the way you put it, it really puts value on the woman in that sense. A helper, and you equate him to the Holy Spirit. What does the Holy Spirit do? He empowers. So the woman is the one who empowers. Very interesting. It's a very interesting way that the woman now empowers the one she's helping. That's interesting. That's interesting.
But on the other hand, also, it says that the helper will not do as they want; they will only do as they get instructions from... okay, that's the other thing. So that's now the relationship. You've actually given me a very interesting revelation as you are talking.
But I also want to put in the other purpose, which is Genesis chapter, I think, verse 20. The woman's purpose, biblical purpose, is to mother. To mother the living. Basically that, mother the living. And, uh, maybe at this point, I will also stop and just want to hear what Modester has to say about this from the prophetic view, you know. Praise the Lord Jesus.
Pastor Modester Sweeney Okome: Every woman that lives has a womb. Yes. So when I think about a woman, I'm thinking about somebody that has an ability to receive. [Music] So because when you go to the Bible in Genesis 3, you remember the Bible does not say "his seed" which shall bruise the head of the serpent. It says "her seed." It makes it personal. Why? Because the reason we carry wombs is to receive seed. So when I have seed, the Bible says, "her seed shall bruise the head of the devil, and it shall bruise his heel." So what do wombs mean in this particular sense? Wombs mean that we are receivers of seed. And the Bible says in Luke 8:11 that the seed is the word. So we are manufactured in a particular way that not only do we have physical wombs, but there's a special thing that a woman carries, that when God is thinking about reformation, great awakening, He's looking for someone that has an ability to carry seed. And who is that person? The one with the womb. Because the womb is the place where seed is kept, it is nurtured, it is provided all the vitamins, all the nutrients it needs to become something. Then it's presented forth as the purpose of God. Yes, Father.
Apostle Grace Lubega: Yes, praise the Lord Jesus Christ. Um, and please allow me to build on what you've spoken, because that's what was in my spirit. Again, why do we define a woman? If you're a woman, why should we again take time to define it? Like I said in the beginning, the roles, responsibilities have changed. The vision of God concerning women has what? Has changed today. That we have to be deliberate, like we've said, not only to define that identity but to position you to be functional as you should.
Let me begin from where this the wonderful man of God said the scripture: "It is not good for man to be alone." When you study the root definitions there in the Hebrew, that portion of scripture translates as "man cannot build alone." It translates as "man wastes alone," "man spoils alone." That's actually the Hebrew. In other words, when God created Adam in His image, He knew that if Adam stays alone, he will spoil himself.
And by the way, on a deeper level, there are people who cannot be alone, because when they are alone, they have to somewhere waste themselves, some sort of wasting. Did you know that? There are people who cannot be alone and not waste. If they're alone, they'll find themselves drinking. If they're alone, they find themselves playing with things. Why? Because it is a hard thing, by the way, to be one, yet alone. It's almost as though many things connect themselves to you when you're alone or when you are conscious of your loneliness.
And it's in the same right that God said that it is not good for man to be alone, because He knows if a man is alone, he will automatically waste himself. It takes only the understanding of the fruit of the Spirit, why we have things like self-control, that you will tell yourself... If you want to know a person who is whole, that's a person who does not waste themselves when they're alone, who does not spoil themselves when they're alone. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the meaning of "it is not good for man to be alone."
That is why there is no man in the world – and this is true, it's a fact from scripture – who can have a successful ministry without women. It's not possible. Did you know that? A successful institution without women... regardless, whether it's... you need a certain helper, otherwise you'll what? Will spoil. But it's also equally true, it is hard to have a successful women's ministry. Temusobola. [You can't manage each other.] That is why God put a man's eye to be a part of you, because it's the two things that complete each other.
However, in this narrative, now I'm going to what Mama Modester was saying here. I am intrigued about the word you said, "receiving seed." But allow me to use a deeper word: conception. Because the root word there of conception is concept, idea, construct. That God has naturally, biblically given a woman the mind to construct any vision. That's primarily it. That you are a constructor of vision. If a man has a vision, God has given you the grace of construction, of interpretation. If a concept is also interpretation, God has given you the idea to execute the vision. That is why man cannot be alone, because if he has a vision but there is no power to construct it, then he cannot be what? Complete.
So, there are those who are married; it becomes easier to interpret this narrative. But for any of you who are single, who are not married, it still doesn't take away your part and essence of nature as God has created you to be and do. The question is, as a woman, do you look at yourself as a conception entity? Do you look at yourself as that person God created on earth to give interpretation and understanding of things? There is a way women interpret things. Now, those of us who are married can tell you that you realize it's in them to interpret. Because even as men, now Mr. Myinza can tell you, even with all the wisdom we have, there are ways we cannot interpret certain things. And you grow to appreciate if you have had a mother, if you have had a wife, if you've had people who really have worked with God and have a relationship with God, there are things they can do that only they have the ability to do. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ. So for me, what I take is the place of conception. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ.
Second question. Um, now there's this issue that we find many of our ladies are dealing with. And I've seen it many a time where you find a lady who is a mother, she has an 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. job, she's maybe pursuing a master's degree to further her advantages in life and career. [Music] She is a wife, and she has to attend to the needs of her husband. And sometimes also us, we are like... I will not say it. Praise the Lord. And especially now for you who has been working for years, as long as I remember, you're working. But how do you find that perfect balance? Because there are women, when they miss, when they attend to the family, they miss their place with God. Some, when they try to connect to their place in God, they miss their place with career. And then, if they're trying to catch up with children, they mess up their man. If they're trying to fix the man, then they mess up the child. What we're asking is the wisdom to draw that balance. Where does it begin from?
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Thank you, Apostle. I will try. Uh, I'm privileged that actually I've been in these areas. And one thing, I think the beginning of it all still begins with the number one question: First thing is identity. How do I identify myself? Who am I? What am I? Before I deal with all these spectrum of things, I find that that is key, has been key in my life, to have an identity.
And I think, and I've mingled with women, and with my daughters, by the way, I'm a mother of nine. Yes, I received. [Applause] I am married to my husband, James Katana. So Katana is his name. Now I have my grandchildren, over a dozen of them. And I'm 67 years old. So, and I'm a leader, and not anywhere else but in State House, working with a principal. And at the same time, I'm a minister of the word. Most importantly, I am born again. What I mean, I have been renewed in the spirit of my mind, that I no longer think or view anything from the world perspective. That's what I'm talking, that I'm born again.
So balancing this, I found that the issue with us is lack of identity in most cases. But with the scriptures I started with, is that if I'm created in God's image, then can I first and foremost look at my where I came from? Do I know the qualities of God? Do I know who God is? Do I know how He functions? Do I know His standards? Do I know what I'm expected to be, if God is my prototype? So I start there.
And when I talk about the Holy Spirit of being a counterpart, indeed, as you're saying, we are incubators. I've got to identify myself that yes, I got to receive, but also I have to incubate, and I have to nurture. That means that whoever you women are, leaders at all levels, from home to work to church to everything, because you've got to influence. Women are more influencers, actually, than commanding. And maybe that's where sometimes we lose it, when we want to come forcefully, and you also assert yourself, and you be manly, and everything. That created, God created has a purpose. So I come from there knowing...
Apostle Grace Lubega: Must explain commanding versus influence.
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Commanding is, "You do this! You have to do this! This ought to be like this!" That is commanding or giving a decree, and it goes. But a woman influences by giving direction and showing direction by who they see you are and what you do. So that is not about word. "I've been doing this..." We hide behind the word of God and the pulpit, and... but what is your life? What is my experience?
So as a mother, grandmother, wife, and minister, and leader, I find that first of all, the stabilizing factor is knowing who I am, knowing my mandate, knowing what is expected of me. And in most cases, I still say it, not religiously, I must know God. I must have a personal relationship with God. That is the stabilizing factor. That's who will teach you how to deal with all this. This is, this is hard. You have a husband there, you have the children there. The husband is saying, "You have more time for your children." Then you have a job waiting for you, and the job is saying, "You care about the family." You... it is such a hard thing. But I found that everything has been simplified by indeed co-working with the Holy Spirit to teach me the way to go and what I should do. That has stabilized me, and that has caused me the balance. Because God has made me balanced. I am balanced emotionally, physically, mentally. I am balanced. Why? Because there is that harmonizing factor of the Holy Spirit in a deep relationship with my God.
Apostle Grace Lubega: She is saying that there is a balance that she feels she has by God because of her relationship with the Holy Spirit. So the concept of "how do you balance?" is not really the question, because this balancing comes within her identity. And that is beautiful, because then you're drawing from within. This is not something you're trying to live without, as one trying to, uh, construct some geography around this whole philosophy of balancing life, but rather from a place that God has built within you because you know who you are and the vision that you have concerning how God has made you. He has made you balanced. And as you continue to yield to the person of the Holy Spirit, you find that all things work together. That's what she's saying. That's deep. That's deep. Thank you for that answer.
Pastor Modester Sweeney Okwomi: Yes, uh, what I'd like to say, thank you Papa, thank you Mommy. What I'd like to say is that work is a grace. It's a particular grace of life that God has given us. Children, if you have children or you have an ability to bear children, that is a grace. If you say, uh, maybe say you're a businesswoman, that is a grace. You have a husband, those are particular graces of this life with which God has granted us. So if God has given me an ability to experience an atmosphere where all these graces are, and they must be responded to, the One that gave me a promotion to enter all these graces gave me the grace. He mounted my spirit, He mounted my being and everything that I am with the grace to walk in these graces. God will not position you somewhere where He knows you can't manage. And Paul well said, "I can do all things through Christ that strengthens me." The "strengthens" bit there is the grace. "I can do all things through Christ that graces me." So when I'm in that position, there's work, there's a husband, there's children, there is, uh, there is business, there is all these things going on. Number one, as a woman, I must celebrate that God has granted me that opportunity because it doesn't happen to everyone else. These are things people have gone to mountains seeking. People are breaking fences trying to find them. People are going to witch doctors everywhere trying to find them. Now, if you find yourself there, number one, Papa, is that I want to celebrate that place and say, "Oh God, thank you, thank you." But number two, also come to the realization that whoever gave me these graces gave me the main grace, gave me the ability to suit, the ability to fit, and to supply everything that must be supplied in these graces. Yes, Baba. Thank you.
Apostle Grace Lubega: You look like you want to add.
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Yes, I love to. By the way, I'm not necessarily speaking of certain scriptures, but everything that I speak is based on the word. What my daughter here is saying is true about grace. But sometimes I have found that we speak words, we use them, but the interpretation of them or the definition beats us. So because everyone on earth has been given grace. But indeed, exactly what is grace, Apostle, since "Grace" is your name? You have to actually explain to us what his name means.
But one thing also I know about grace is that you must take grace. You must take grace. You must receive grace. And sincerely, to receive that grace, if you are standing up... I'm a teacher. I've got to bend and pick that grace at the cross. So humility, humbleness, being teachable, being ready to learn and to receive is the other quality of, and our grace, and actually a power of a woman. We must bend and pick the grace. But we also need to know what grace is. Sometimes it is abused, it is misinterpreted, that "we're in grace, so I can do everything by the grace of God." But actually, the grace of God gives us, first and foremost, to know the truth. And when we know the truth, then that truth is going to liberate us from many ignorant things we have not known. And God didn't say, "My people are perishing because of sin." He says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." And the knowledge is of the truth, reality. Truth is reality. So this grace, we can say grace and grace and grace and grace, but exactly what is grace? And also, how do I receive this grace? It is there for me. Do I receive it? And how do I receive? What does it take me to receive that grace? But first of all, what is that grace? Because it is important to understand. Since that is your name, you must define yourself to us.
Yes, uh, what I'd like to say, thank you Papa, thank you Mommy. What I'd like to say is that work is a grace. It's a particular grace of life that God has given us. Children, if you have children or you have an ability to bear children, that is a grace. If you say, uh, maybe say you're a businesswoman, that is a grace. You have a husband, those are particular graces of this life with which God has granted us. So if God has given me an ability to experience an atmosphere where all these graces are, and they must be responded to, the One that gave me a promotion to enter all these graces gave me the grace. He mounted my spirit, He mounted my being and everything that I am with the grace to walk in these graces. God will not position you somewhere where He knows you can't manage. And Paul well said, "I can do all things through Christ that strengthens me." The "strengthens" bit there is the grace. "I can do all things through Christ that graces me." So when I'm in that position, there's work, there's a husband, there's children, there is, uh, there is business, there is all these things going on. Number one, as a woman, I must celebrate that God has granted me that opportunity because it doesn't happen to everyone else. These are things people have gone to mountains seeking. People are breaking fences trying to find them. People are going to witch doctors everywhere trying to find them. Now, if you find yourself there, number one, Papa, is that I want to celebrate that place and say, "Oh God, thank you, thank you." But number two, also come to the realization that whoever gave me these graces gave me the main grace, gave me the ability to suit, the ability to fit, and to supply everything that must be supplied in these graces. Yes, Baba. Thank you.
Apostle Grace Lubega: You look like you want to add.
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Yes, I love to. By the way, I'm not necessarily speaking of certain scriptures, but everything that I speak is based on the word. What my daughter here is saying is true about grace. But sometimes I have found that we speak words, we use them, but the interpretation of them or the definition beats us. So because everyone on earth has been given grace. But indeed, exactly what is grace, Apostle, since "Grace" is your name? You have to actually explain to us what his name means.
But one thing also I know about grace is that you must take grace. You must take grace. You must receive grace. And sincerely, to receive that grace, if you are standing up... I'm a teacher. I've got to bend and pick that grace at the cross. So humility, humbleness, being teachable, being ready to learn and to receive is the other quality of, and our grace, and actually a power of a woman. We must bend and pick the grace. But we also need to know what grace is. Sometimes it is abused, it is misinterpreted, that "we're in grace, so I can do everything by the grace of God." But actually, the grace of God gives us, first and foremost, to know the truth. And when we know the truth, then that truth is going to liberate us from many ignorant things we have not known. And God didn't say, "My people are perishing because of sin." He says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." And the knowledge is of the truth, reality. Truth is reality. So this grace, we can say grace and grace and grace and grace, but exactly what is grace? And also, how do I receive this grace? It is there for me. Do I receive it? And how do I receive? What does it take me to receive that grace? But first of all, what is that grace? Because it is important to understand. Since that is your name, you must define yourself to us.
Okay, here's the cleaned and processed continuation of the transcript:
Apostle Grace Lubega: Yeah, Mama is speaking from Romans. He says, "For if by one man's offense death reigned," the Bible says, "much more they which receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of what? Righteousness, shall reign in life by one, Jesus." I think the emphasis here is He didn't say, "much more they which have been given." It's one thing, like she said, to be given; it's another thing to what? To receive it. I think that's what Romans 5:17 is saying. Like when the Bible says, "Oh, we're healed by His stripes," it's true, but there's somebody who is dealing with sickness, and maybe if you examine them, they honestly have not received healing, even though it has been what? Available. So I think the conversation really is in how we take, how we receive.
And I think we must understand that there are given patterns in receiving. She spoke of humility, you know, the breaking of the spirit, the death with which you must die as an individual. What you might call in your simpler language, to surrender. Many of us actually are not as surrendered as we say we are, because even though we are leaning in the name of the grace of God to carry us through, but with our actions, we almost as though walk away from what God has given us to try to do things carnally, in our own ability. You cannot mix carnality with the work of grace. That's a sign that you have not actually received. And I think that's very important.
Because, for example, let's talk about balance. You can never have a true balance in life – and now let me speak generally, not only work and stuff, but a total balance in life – without understanding your priorities. What comes first in your life? Because if we're saying "balancing," am I saying I'm going to balance God with children? Am I saying I'm going to balance God with my workplace? Can I really give all of them what they deserve equally? And can both be satisfied if I serve mammon and God the same? And that's not the truth. The truth is, it begins with firstly you as a person.
I told people, Phanero grew to 2,000 members when I was still banking. And we had pastors who were in full-time, and they were struggling to grow ministry. And I was preaching almost every day of my life, even though I was what? Banking. Paul says, "I labored more than all my brethren, yet not I, but the grace of God which labored in me." You must understand that when grace comes, the labors of God become weightless. Even the things that were supposed to be complicated start to become what? Simple.
There is something my mom has spoken about, and I call it the power of choice. The power of choice. It's in the realm of receiving. As those of you are physicists, some of you have studied quantum physics and the like, you understand that the world functions under the fundamental laws of energy, vibrations, and frequencies – scientific, even biblically. And these vibrations spiritually affect your circle of influence. When the Bible speaks, so for example, when Jesus, the Bible says that His name was voiced abroad. There are people who can only influence two people in life. There are people who can influence tens of thousands, people who can influence millions of people. That is an increase of the vibration of frequencies. Physically or scientifically, that's an explanation. Of course, the New Age has tried to build conversations around those things that is really demonic because they tap in darkness to do that. But for us, our vibrations and frequencies come from the Word. Are you following what I'm saying now?
But there's something I needed to share with us. Nothing activates the power to move things, to vibrate things, to increase frequency like the decision you make. The decision. It's one thing to say, "How am I going to do it?" There is power in saying, "I am going to be a wonderful mother." The decision. Because that's the pattern of receiving grace. That's what she's talking about. You cannot just say, "Oh, I don't know how to be... uh, maybe God will help me." No, but to really make the decision and say, "I'm going to make my marriage work." Now grace is given. "I'm going to make sure that I raise godly children." Now grace is given. "I'm going to make sure that when it is service time, I will attend my services in spite of my busy schedules." And your schedules might not allow, but the decision to say, "I am going to do it" comes with the power and grace of God to adjust every tectonic plate, every circumstance, every program, every line of assignment to make sure that they agree with you. But the willingness for you to prompt yourself to say, "I have decided."
So even the balance, as Mama said, from the grace perspective, the reconciliation of this, to understand to take grace and receive it, there's some sort of action expected from you. It's not passive: "Let me sit back, somehow the grace to mother will come. Let me sit back, somehow I'll sleep all through and tomorrow I'll have a message for people." No. Ask my wife, she wakes up at 3, 4 and finds me praying and reading. I won't just say, "No, let the anointing just come upon me to have a message." No, grace has been given me, but the application comes through me yielding, because the Bible says yielding pacifies offense. And some of these offenses are not "I stole, I lied, and cheated." Some of these offenses are in the realm of being given so much but doing little with so much.
Allow me to say this, I know many people, some of you went to school, will understand this. You find a very brilliant student, very brilliant boy, but he never wanted to study. Wasn't grace given to him? It was. But this was a guy who never applied himself. You find a very talented boy who could have become a successful footballer, and then he's sitting home. There's no decision to exercise themselves. But then they're expecting that somehow grace is going to minister and find a way of putting them in the places of mastery when they have not exercised themselves in the temperance of mastery. That's not possible. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ. So I think I've answered. Musumba, you wanted to add again?
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Yes, add. One day I was praying, and there is something I was asking God to do. And the Lord asked me, "Why do you ask Me to do what I gave you the mandate to do?" I stopped. I repeat it. There is what I was asking the Lord to do, like we do, "Lord, do this, Lord, do this." And the Lord said, "Why do you ask Me to do for you what I gave you the mandate to do? I gave you the authority, I empowered you, I anointed you, I gave you everything it takes for you to do it. Why now are you asking Me to be the one to do it?" So that relates to receiving grace. There are things that you are not going to ask God to do because He put in you and He gave you the authority and the mandate. You are the one to do them. If you don't do them, no one is going to do them. But even Satan will not do them. Yes, thank you. Otherwise, people will start telling angels to leave their beds. Thank you very, thank you.
Next question. Somebody, uh, I'm going to begin with you, Musumba Myinza. Somebody had not yet known God, entered into a relationship with a man, and it seems as though they get into the place of faith and believe God. And they go for church, they are praying, they are fasting, they are doing everything. But then they discover that the person, because they are married to, is indifferent. Because they are indifferent, many things are out of line. They don't seem to have a vision. And as you continue, many of you who later got into this thing and then you went deep, then even the purpose for marriage starts to become a problem. "Why did I marry this guy in the first place?"
Some actually even enter these relationships by decision and say, "I know he's not a believer, but let's go." But when you do, don't make God speak. Hey! Let us also be clear. Some of you make God speak. God cannot speak contrary to His word. If God has said, "Do not yoke with an unbeliever," there is no parallel universe where that truth changes. But you can enter it. But when you do, don't make God speak. When you enter, let us make plans of seeing how to help you, because the church is here to what? We can help you. But don't make God speak.
But then there are those ones who entered, for example, and the message, what, arrested you? Are you following? Then as you started going deep into the word of God, the vision of this man starts to disappear because you don't understand him. This marriage starts to lose purpose because when you come to church, you see Pastor Zach with his wife dancing, and then you wish, "Come on now, that this man of God will also what? One day connect." And then some people are broken. And some want to opt out. Some things start breaking, other things start breaking. I know there's a hot seat, but what advice, Pastor Myinza Francis Kironde, would you give such a woman?
Pastor Francis Myinza: I guess, a little bit, I want to go back to what my Madame Mama said: bend, pick it. And when you pick it, the requirement's right there. Once you've picked it, it becomes part of you. It makes you, it gives you a new identity. Which identity is what you are always going to wake up to work for, also to defend, because that is your identity.
Now, before you get married, you have an identity which is in Jesus Christ. That's your identity as a woman. [Music] You have an identity because you've accepted, because of the decision you made to walk with Jesus Christ. So whatever you decide on thereafter, you are deciding as a child of God. So along the way, as you grow, as you proceed, as you progress, you meet somebody who would love to have you as a partner, would love to have you as a helper, just like we've been talking. So you walk in that covenant with your identity as a what? As a believer. So your values are because you are a believer. You are because you are a believer.
Now, if you find yourself in a relationship like that, it's sort of going to actually speak a little bit to that question we've been discussing. If you have an identity, there are things you're going to determine to do. The wonderful story I love is in the book of Daniel. You know Daniel had an identity. They were moved from their safety, where they were developed in this particular setting, and taken into captivity. But they walked in this new captivity, and they were going to be put into a process of being changed to a different identity, but they came with their own what? Identity. [Music]
Apostle Grace Lubega: Break it down a bit and speak things as they are. Okay, I understand you, yes, but from a philosophical perspective. Okay, first come down a bit.
Pastor Francis Myinza: Now, when you know Jesus Christ as a personal savior, the things are laid out for you there. You start, you are nurtured in the Christian setting in a church. Now you know the identity, you begin developing that identity. Now when you meet a person who wants you to be their partner, they come with their own identity. But the first one we are asked, or we are encouraged by the scripture, that we should go in for believers. Believers to what? To a believer.
If you walk in there, or if you became a believer when you had already committed yourself to walk with a particular person, your identity, which you are busy working for and defending, is what is going to protect you. That's what I'm saying, exactly. That's what is going to protect you, because your identity is in God Himself. Because God is with you in that relationship. And the way you do things, because like I said, I wanted to bring that Daniel, because I find that Daniel determined not to walk according to the present. They decided to walk the way they were being raised up with the God they knew, is the God they came with. And therefore, as they walked, defending the values of the Lord, again, the Lord came, okay, over to protect that relationship. And eventually, the people who didn't even believe them, they started believing like him. They saw their values, and they saw because these guys are determined.
So that balance which we talked about comes about even in a relationship when you determine to do certain things which you have planned to do in the name of Jesus Christ. And you determine, determining to say, "I am not going to walk away from these things." But you give, or you allow the grace to cover you as you even deliver these things before or with this particular man God has given you. God, as you walk, and it's going to, it's cause for a lot of sacrifice. And it's, like I say again, determination. As you walk, allowing the Lord to walk with you in all these things, the Lord will rescue you because you are with the Holy Spirit. Praise God. Yes, Mama.
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Well, first and foremost, marriage is a mystery. I always think that marriage is like death. It cannot be predetermined, it cannot be... there is so much about it. Now, I think we see three things here. One, there is looking at the aspiring partner and how the visions... A woman who is, yes, in it, she believed, and the man is not yet to believe. And they are fighting when they are already married. Yes.
Yes, I did that. I married an unbeliever when I was a believer. Uh-huh. This is good. Now, that's where we want to hear. Spicy now. Yes.
I think I base most of my sharing with experience. So I went around. That time, really, there wasn't like even many men that were born again. Even those who were like born again, they were just jokers. Yes, even as there are some jokers even today. Uh, I belong to the Anglican communion, Church of Uganda. So that, I wasn't... yes, my parents were really men and women of God, read the prophets, they taught us how to walk with the Lord. This is the background where I'm coming from. But we did not have those sharings. We would see them indeed as good. So you cannot even talk about, and we didn't have those times of sharing about marriage. And somehow in my life was like, "What is marriage? Maybe I get married, I have children." And so there wasn't much purpose other than having children.
So, but I get this man. I loved him. He sang for me one day, and I fell in love. [Applause] And he would compliment me, say, "You look ravishing!" And then I'm more in love. And yeah, before I knew it, we got married. We got together. And I did really not mind about him being born again or not born again. But the truth of the matter, I was established in God. And I wasn't like, "I'm going to change this man." And, uh, I didn't mind what he was doing that much. But eventually, things, of course, started dawning on me. But he didn't really resist knowing God. Went to church together, we prayed together, we had our children together, we prayed together. There wasn't really anything resistant, he was resisting. And actually, eventually he accepted the Lord. But there was fire because he would be going this way, and he's going that way. So whoever has entered in that relationship, accept that fire. You choose it.
But honestly, you remain established. I want to assure you that God will see to everything. And do not try... some people try... In Kinyarwanda, when a calf cannot drink of a cow, then you have forced it. So sometimes we want to kabukansa [force] the gospel to the men. And the more you try, they resist it. You know, the more you want to make me like you, I also want to be more with myself. So I think that has brought a lot of conflict.
If you're in that relationship, trust God and be faithful to God. And don't try to learn to... don't try to play God in someone else's life. Pray for them. Let them have their peace. Be with your God. Don't judge them. At one time, sir, I use this even with my children. Some of them are here, and my grandchildren, some of them are here. But now that I knew the word of God, we go into prayer, and I have issues with my husband or with my... and we have read the scriptures, we grew up reading scriptures all of us together. Then I get a scripture to hit them. [Laughter] I always look for, because I was always ministering, so I look for if I'm speaking and we are learning this, and I'm gearing it to let him hear, let her... Until the Lord said, "Never use My words to speak your words. If you have issues, settle them. Don't bring them here. Here, I'm the Master."
But I found that in most cases, we want to force them. And I want to assure you, the more you try to force them, the more they will steer away from you and from God. So let's not play God. Pray for them. Guide them simply. Do your responsibility. You must do your responsibility. Doing our responsibility in marriages is not contingent on what someone does or does not do.
Apostle Grace Lubega: Say that again, sorry, for those of you who don't know German.
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: In a marriage, or even actually in every relationship, [Music] it's a responsibility. Love, yes. Infatuation, feelings, and emotions, yeah, they have to be applied to attract you to the other. But eventually, they went away. But then what stays is your role, is your mandate, is your responsibility. And doing your part is not contingent, does not depend on what one does or does not do. Is it clear? Is it clear to you? Whether he does it or he does not do it, whether he abuses me or he does not, I will still do my responsibility. So it cannot be... And I'll give you, uh, that also is in my work with the Lord, is that at one time I refused, I said, "Ah, let him also do something." And I was like... But one day the Lord told me, "When you stand before Me, you'll be alone. And what I will ask you is, 'Have you done it?'" And the answer will not be, "You see, when he did like this, I..." It will be yes or no. So I want us to know it, all of us, even men and women, whatever the case, do what the Lord tells you to do. The rest, leave it to Him. Thank you.
Pastor Modester Sweeney Okome: You have something to say? Just something small, Papa. I noticed one thing the ladies said, that the husband is, uh, indifferent and an unbeliever. So a person being indifferent and a person being an unbeliever does not mean that now that you've found yourself in that situation, the person cannot change. The Bible tells us something in the book of, uh, 1 Peter 3:1. It says that for the woman that has found themselves in that situation, how will this man be converted? The Bible says that if you obey the word... You know, the Bible says that my godly conversations, my chaste conversations, how I choose to conduct myself before this person, is what will determine as to whether they will see God enough to transform or not. The Bible says, "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word," it means he's not obeying the word, but he says that, "if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives." What does the Bible mean with "conversations"? That it means your way of life. The way you respond to the situation that you have found yourself in. The Bible says the way you respond to that situation is what will determine as to whether he will change or not. So don't leave yet. Don't just say, "It's over, I want to get out, it can't work." Don't leave. Live the good life before him. Yes, Papa. Thank you.
Apostle Grace Lubega: The other thing I need to add now, please allow me to speak from a manly perspective. The reason why we carried some men here today is because we miss this on men's conference. But next year, I'll have women too, because it's also important. It's dangerous to receive, it's dangerous to receive only from one perspective. It's like if you've noticed in the world, the biggest challenge...
Okay, here's the cleaned and processed continuation of the transcript:
Apostle Grace Lubega: ...when it comes to sex education in the world, it is because almost all the philosophers that defined sex were actually men. If you go back through history – Sigmund Freud and the Muslims and who – when you notice, they are usually men. So, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I think some of you have read it. When you define it from a manly perspective, or when you teach sex education from a manly perspective, which is mostly now in our secondary school texts, it does not make sense for a woman.
Because I'll give you an example: I am a pastor who has dealt with women who are sexually abused. You hear many; they come and tell you, "I was abused by my uncle, my father." If you've met a woman who was sexually abused when they were a child, for example, it is hard for a man to understand why the raped one actually carries shame. It is so funny because from a manly perspective, I'm like, "But you didn't ask for it, neither did you want it. I thought the shame should be from the side of the man." But why does this woman carry shame? And then as I started to study how women think, I realized it's within her nature to take responsibility, even when it's not her fault. It is within her nature to take what? Responsibility. So I got another understanding of how a woman's brain works. But if you don't understand that, it is easy for you to sort of slide over what is.
It's the same thing when it comes to, now let me give you a man's perspective. Men, all men are born with an ego. We only have them in degrees. You understand? Some are defined by culture. The Muslim Ugandan... [Music] ...so you get where I'm coming from. Some egos are tolerable, some egos are overinflated. That's what we call toxic masculinity, where a woman can look at the man and says, "Don't look at me!" You see, now those are suffering. What... are you following what I'm saying?
Now, if you find a man with zero ego, don't marry him. Because when a man does not have zero ego, that means they don't carry enough pride as a man to do things men should do. Which is also dangerous, because sometimes that ego is important to tell me, "But I'm a man, why should the woman provide for me? Let me go and work." Now imagine a guy with a zero ego, he'll stay home watching TV as you go and work. And some of them, the ego for working is zero, but then the ego for being served is up there. Are you following what I'm saying?
Now, for the lady who is listening to me, especially now, this is not only for when you're dealing with an indifferent, an unbeliever. Some of you also have trouble with born-again men who are tongue-speaking. Mama, please don't say to me they are worse off. She called them jokers. In Phanero, we don't have jokers anyway. But it's a fact that some people are men, whether born again or not, there's certain things that are not yet what? Transformed. But why are you always insistent? Say, at least you'd rather have a joker who is born again. It's the same experience of Sarah and Abraham, that you might speak to him to get rid of Hagar, and he refuses, and God comes at night to what? To talk to him. But if this guy has no relationship or tangent, chances are he might not hear God.
But back to the issue of ego, whether born again or not, one of the biggest secrets of keeping a happy marriage, women, listen from a man's perspective, is the wisdom to manage your husband's ego. It's wisdom. It's wisdom.
I'll give you a simple example. You might realize that men... women were naturally wired to talk about things anytime. I don't know whether you've noticed, she can bring a very serious conversation when you're watching a movie. For the way God has wired you is, once the preparation of language is there, once you form the language, you actually what? Speak. You only hold it until you have the language. Once you have the language to air it, it comes out anytime.
Now, for men, men naturally don't have a language to air out, especially when things are sensitive, when it's a sensitive conversation. That's why you realize when a man is overwhelmed, he will withdraw and keep quiet. And I always tell women that one of the most dangerous things for your husband to be is to keep quiet. If you find the guy who is always quarreling, "I'm done, you're okay," trust me, at least he talks. But ask a man, by the time a man says, "I'm not going to speak for one week, for two weeks," the way a man's mind works when it is not speaking, it's more dangerous than a woman's mind. Any man will tell you. Are you following what I'm saying? Because it means he's saying, "I cannot speak. Why? I'm not understood." And it's a dangerous relationship when you're not being understood. Are we following something?
But there's something I want to construct for us. In part of building this life of trying to win your man over, know when to bring God in the conversation. It's wisdom. Know when. Are you following? Otherwise, there's something Mama is talking about, where you find that you're going to choke it at the point he's not ready to talk it. And the point when he's not ready to swallow it, you're trying to make him swallow it, and you're going to have trouble. The wisdom to know how to manage your man's ego, where at whichever level the ego is... I've seen women calm down the modest men. Now you know this guy, Muraru, but when he reaches his wife, he becomes a cat, yet he was a lion. I've seen, I'm telling you, I'm speaking, I've seen. I've seen men who are wild, but when you talk, she says, "How you talk to my wife!" She spoke the word here, the key, you said: influence, not imposition. Influence.
That is why a woman can get Samson and get a secret God told him never to tell, through the power of what? Seduction. But if there wasn't seduction, there was still a way, and it was given to you. How do you think Eve made... so many people say, "How did the serpent convince Eve?" But how did Eve convince Adam? Actually, scripturally, she didn't need to convince him. She just gave him... um, you get where I'm coming from. Now, that is power. And you can abuse it when you don't know God. But you can use it also to preach the gospel.
Study this individual, as indifferent, as crazy as he is. What are the parts where I can introduce this God? What are the times I can have this conversation? What are the times when I just need to keep quiet because the only way to minister to him is silence? What are the times where the gospel operating on my life will cause me not to give the opinion which I know I'm right, but because it is not the right time, where he is right now, he cannot receive from me? The day you understand when your husband, or how your husband responds to you, and how he is able to receive, like Esther, he will tell you, "Even if you want half of my kingdom, have it."
I think that's the church conversation. That's why the Bible in Peter says "discipline." The word "chaste" is "disciplined." Your conversation must be disciplined. Discipline means only the Holy Spirit can help you understand how to deal with him. Without that relationship, it's like even as husbands, there are things you will want to say, and the Holy Spirit says, "Not now." And you respect the person of the Holy Spirit. But don't think that every time you have to impose.
And so, to conclude on this matter, pray for the wisdom to manage the ego of the unbeliever and the indifferent, or sometimes even the believer that is funny. It is amazing, God sort of will guide you in ways to know how to minister. It's called ministering to the heart of your husband, ministering to that heart. And every woman who has had, or has won, especially when you say, "Now he later received Jesus as his Lord and Savior," what you're not going to tell them are the scars that came. What you're not going to tell them are the wounds that you carried. What you're not going to tell them are the times where you had, what you knew something, and you had to cover him a certain way because your children should not see him that way. As a mother, you have to stand and say, "This is what I'm saying." You learn to cover him in your children, you learn to cover him before people. You understand? You carry seed to the pastor and say, "From me and my husband," even when he tells you, "I don't want you to..." So, but what are you trying to do? You're trying to cover this man as far as you can, possible, to make sure that when your pastor meets him, he has a different picture. Maybe that act of thank you, it's enough to minister comfort.
But like when Mama said, many of us live from a side of judging our own spouses, forgetting what the Lord has gone through to deal with us. You have your madness; only God has tamed you. So exercise the same grace and extend it to that individual as the Lord constructs this story. It's amazing how the pieces will start falling in line as you trust a lot, step by step. And some of those, when they get converted, they can become the most beneficial people in the gospel. Somebody shout, Hallelujah! Amen! Amen!
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Yes, we've got, uh, we are talking about marriage and the married, but I believe that we have unmarried here. And maybe I wanted to chip in here that what I told my girls and my boys, my children who are now big people – the last born was married last year – I tell them to look at the value system of an individual. Look at a value system of that person that loves you or you are in love with. And this value system must be God first. Does this person really love God? Has he even any idea about who God is? Because if he doesn't, then I do not know indeed how you are going to merge and to become one, because your perspectives will be completely different.
So please, uh, those who are not yet married, and you are... Then also we talked about purpose. Why are you marrying? I found most girls today, they marry for some funny, funny things. "My friends have all got married. I've finished school, I get married." Uh, "I think I want a guy who is like this and like that." They go. Marriage is really a lifetime thing, and it is a step-by-step. So it's not something you are going to try and come out of, come out of. And I see a lot of instantaneous actions or doing things. Someone said, they asked, "Why did you jump from this one relationship, and the next moment you are engaging another person?" And this guy said, "No, you know, it was my time to marry, and I looked at my list. So if this one did not accept, I go with this one." Seriously, that is happening in this generation.
So I want to beg you girls, especially my daughters and grandchildren that are there, marriage, one, is a mystery. Even these pastors, if they were to tell you, when they reach in marriage, sometimes the word of God gets flipped. Why are you looking at me? Marriage is something, I want to assure you, marriage, there is no school for marriage. There is no expert. Up to now, I'm thinking of going away after 42 years of marriage! So I want you to know that sincerely, this is a secret of God, and we must have God factor in this. And you must look for a value system in that person. If the person is godly, or loves God, or knows God, and God comes first, then he's a hard worker and he loves people.
I don't mind, because this is a disclaimer, but I'll say it. I have friends and people who have married born-again, fire-spitting, Spirit-filled men of God, but they have become so demonic in their marriages. So words and experience are two different things. So don't go to even a pastor, "How do I manage my marriage?" He was also stuck with his... [Applause] He's the one who invited me, I did not ask.
Apostle Grace Lubega: Why did I invite you? [Applause]
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: Yeah, uh, seriously, on a very serious note, I do not encourage, yes, you can go for counseling, but I think we have the best counselor: the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit of the living God. And those of you who have just come, you love the Lord, but you have never confessed Christ, there is no way you can get this Helper unless you accept Christ in your life. That is the open door. He's the only door through which this Holy Spirit can come.
So I have managed all this, all this, really. It's as if I really hope that some of my children did not tell you my story, because it's like every number I see here is about me, and I'm wondering from here, because it is all that I have experienced and I know about. But of course, from my own stand. But I know that one, there must be purpose. Everything, no, there is a purpose, there is a season, there is a time. Make sure you do things in its time, or ask yourself, "Is this the time? Is this the season?" Even when you are itching to say something, ask yourself, "Is it the time, and indeed, what purpose is it going to serve?"
Apostle and the rest of you here, if we thought of the end of a thing from the conception of it, we would not have the troubled world we are in. Think about the end of a thing from the conception of it. And if you find that the end is good, go ahead and do it. If you fight... because that is wisdom. If you apply that, wisdom will come to you and say, "This is the end of this thing." And if you find that it is good for you, go ahead. Definitely, I know that the Spirit will come in because the Word says, sir, in Proverbs, that "I, Wisdom, dwell with prudence." Prudence, okay? There is taking care, first of all. Think. Some ladies, I want to challenge us, before we do anything, let us think. Don't ask, let's not be moved by emotion and by the moment. Let us first think. And sometimes, you see, it will save you from an action or a word that you can speak to someone, it will destroy them, and you'll never revoke it. Or you take an action you will regret later on. So please, value system, purpose, season, and time. If you have those, I'm telling you, you do think about the end of a matter, even at the conception of it, before you do it. Thank you. Thank you.
Apostle Grace Lubega: Pastor Modester, what is a true understanding of submission as a Christian woman, firstly to God and then to her husband?
Pastor Modester Sweeney Okome: Praise the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you very much, Mama. Thank you. Thank you, Papa. Uh, submission. The Bible says in the book of Ephesians 5:22-21, it says, "Wives, submit yourselves..." One, "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands as unto the Lord." So number one, just like the question says, my submission is unto God. What is submission unto God? A yieldedness. A life of yieldedness to God, to His, to His feelings, to His purposes, to His thoughts concerning who I am. A life that is totally surrendered unto God, a life that is totally given unto God. When I'm living this life, when I'm enjoying that life with my God and my Savior, the Bible says in that same way, I should translate that to my husband. So if I have a place of relationship with God, and I have drawn a certain place of maturity in understanding my special place of the closet, translating the same to the person that God is calling my husband shouldn't be hard. Why? Because in my place of communion, and my place of staying with God, and my place of seeking God, the Spirit of God, just like our Mom said here, becomes that Helper, becomes that place for you, becomes that place that shows you, "No, this is your husband, this is what you do. This is your husband, this is how you speak. This is your husband, this is what you give. This is your husband, this is how you break. This is your husband, this is what you say." Yes, Papa.
Pastor Francis Myinza: What's the major... I'm a mathematician, so I think in mathematics. Two forces: one is pushing this way, the other one is pushing this way. Now, this is God, this force. This is you. So you allow God to cover you like this, but you are still pushing, okay? But now, true submission is that you actually allow, not Him to push you now, you walk and walk with Him. So you allow, you adjust your life. Because you as a woman, you have your own stand, you know, you started, you are able to do ABCD. And also your husband is the same, and he seeks for your submission in order for him to lead the family. So you come with your opinion, but you have to allow him to cover you. However, that scripture does not only call for women to submit; it also says, "Submit..." The other one, as you read before, it says, "Submit to one another for wonderful harmony." So you both allow the other to dominate over, and you actually support them in what they desire or seek to do. Simply that.
Apostle Grace Lubega: Let me... you want to say first? Sorry. Now you go first.
Mrs. Faith Miranda Katana: My understanding of this is, first things first. Because I see here that submission as a Christian woman. If it is a Christian woman, a woman, then I have to first and foremost submit to God. I have to submit to Christ. Although, yes, there is some controversy here, but I won't go into it, because normally the submission is looked at from the woman's point of view, and it is actually put on women. But we also, as, because this is a woman or a wife... "As a woman"... but this is a woman. But then I say, "Firstly to God and then to a husband." So maybe it's a wife here.
I'll submit. Definitely, I have to. I'm still trying to understand it from the way it is translated these days. But we see in that Ephesians 5, say that the head of a woman is a man. And then we say, "Submit the man." But the word also says that the head of every man is Christ. So maybe, uh, the man will help us. When a man is not submitting to God or to Christ as the head, taking the vision of Christ, I think already things have been messed up there. That I will try to submit is a personal grace. Smiling like that... some women are clever, and I know them! [Applause]
So really, to put this in the proper perspective, everything has been flipped because first things are not first. Like the word that says, "Seek ye first the reign of God in my life, and the rest follow." We are looking for the things that follow before we submit to God to have rule, the kingdom of God come in my life. So I think as we are talking as Christians and Christian women, yes, I will submit to God and submit to Christ. But if the head has a problem, then also, as much as I will try, somehow, somewhere, there will not be balance.
So I think as we share this, and indeed, I think there will be time for all the men and other women, and we address both issues of men and women together, so that they also hear and we also hear, let us put things in order. That also men, to help this woman submit to me, let me submit to Christ. And when we see, ladies... wait a minute, wait! I remember we said that your obedience or submission is not contingent. That one is... they are having it here! [Laughter] They are having it here, it isn't... everyone, every one of us. But I think first things must be first. Men need to help us to really have the vision of Christ. And if He really died, if He did everything to make me presentable without blame or blemish by the washing of the word, also maybe we shall seek, "Men, what words do you speak to us? Do they wash us? Do they defile us? Do they make me strong? Do they make me feel inferior?" Because it is the washing of the word, both of us. Even women, what is that word do I speak to my husband? Does it make him a king, or does it show him that he's a non-entity, he doesn't matter, I can do without him? So I think it cuts both ways. So we must, first things first, let us submit to the rule of God in our lives, and everything is going to be in balance.
Apostle Grace Lubega: Allow me to also share something. There is something the Lord showed me years ago, and I gave it a name, but I don't think I've ever preached it. But I have a name in, I have a mental note for it in my head, and I'm going to teach it today in a few seconds. It's called "The Reciprocate Mystery." Don't worry about the English. The Reciprocate Mystery.
I tend to look at, every time I discuss submission, I tend to look at submission as a typical reciprocate mystery. It's a mystery. There's a demystification in understanding [Music] the mind or the law of God that governs the realm in which things are reciprocated. What is reciprocated? To give something over, uh, in return of something you've been given or received, okay? But, uh, holistically, sometimes we can also be short-sighted because we don't really understand how the giving of God works. For example, there's somebody says, "Oh, Daddy, thank you for paying for me fees." And you're right, your daddy has given you fees. But God, through your daddy, has provided for your fees. You agree? Because there was a time, there could have been a world where your father was alive, but he would not afford. So in essence, I am thankful to my father for giving me fees, but really for being obedient to become a conduit of what God has given me.
When it comes to the realm of love, submission can never be understood until we understand the reciprocate mystery. I'll give you an example. God created David. And at one point, David became a father to the Lord. The Bible says, "Out of the root of Jesse, a seed of David shall what? Shall arise." Jesus Christ comes in such a beautiful reciprocate mystery, that what He gave to David in being a son was given of Him in His humility to become a son also of David and the son of Abraham. And I think it disturbed the Pharisees, "How can Jesus, who is God, again be the son, yet He's the one who created the man with whom He has become son?" But for me, what I see is how God praises the mystery of submission, that even He has submitted Himself to man and become a son to whom He fathered. That is deep, if you think about it.
Because I'm coming to a woman understanding submission. This is there to help you understand that submission is the highest quality of a woman or a man who has truly interpreted the responsibility of power. Jesus understood how much power He had, and He came to us as a servant. The Bible says, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." But the Bible says He was, the Bible says He came in the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. Truly, was Jesus to come to serve us, or are we to come to serve Him? And then He gives us the greatest mystery: "If any of you requires to be greatest among all, let him be a servant to all." And servants submit.
So it's a mystery of Godliness, it's a mystery of greatness. It is the interpretation of the wisdom that comes with a woman or man who has understood the responsibility of the power he has given. So when we get to the level of "submit yourselves to one another in the bond of love," in the revelation of that love, even I sometimes find myself submitting myself to my wife. I find that sometimes I will tell her, "That's your call. You take the decision on that." I could... she has given me the power, but sometimes I said, "No, no, no, let me pay fees. Make a decision on that." You see what I'm saying? I'm trying to make her understand that I'm not always going to think or assume that because I'm her head, I'm going to be right. I must also trust that sometimes God talks to her. She knows there are instances she has spoken something and I have... Okay, here's the cleaned and processed continuation of the transcript:
Comments
Post a Comment